Map assessment and pathing enhancements

[evilgrins]

Okay, you shrunk the titans which I get... easier to path them smaller. Should be interesting to see how that handles if it gets nuked.

I've seen a Titan hit with a redeemer on that map and wind up on the upper part of the map where the snipers usually defend from. That was a full sized Titan, though.

Part of why it was good to have them full-sized is unlike others that map with UTDMT I usually give them free range to go anywhere, but on this map I saw advantages to them not being able to fit through the doorways, providing a partial limitation... although you the titan-pathing you've done that seems less an issue.

[Nelsona]

Let's repeat lessons:
Original reachSpec by Epic has 70×70 collisions. If you are not using monsters smaller than this data all roaming patrolling and navigation stuff WON'T EVER work. I didn't shrink them for the sake of shrinking. Do you might want another memory refresh ? Recall a map from several posts ago where your troopers Bots could not leave spawn. Was the same problem: Pawn too big for paths declaration. There I hacked reachSpecs, it's what UT Editor will never do, only in 227 or using other sort of paths.

TechTorial for enthusiasts

Code: Select all

void FPathBuilder::addReachSpecs(AActor *start)
....
	if ( node->IsA(ATeleporter::StaticClass()) || node->IsA(AWarpZoneMarker::StaticClass()) )
	{
...
			if ( bFoundMatch )
			{
				newSpec.Init();
				newSpec.CollisionRadius = 150;
				newSpec.CollisionHeight = 150;
				newSpec.reachFlags = R_SPECIAL;
				newSpec.Start = node;
				newSpec.End = Actor;
				newSpec.distance = 100;
				int pos = insertReachSpec(node->Paths, newSpec);
				if (pos != -1)
				{
					int iSpec = Level->ReachSpecs.AddItem(newSpec);
					//debugf("     Add teleport reachspec %d to node at (%f, %f, %f)", iSpec, Actor->Location.X,Actor->Location.Y,Actor->Location.Z);
					node->Paths[pos] = iSpec;
					pos = insertReachSpec(((ANavigationPoint *)Actor)->upstreamPaths, newSpec);
					if (pos != -1)
						((ANavigationPoint *)Actor)->upstreamPaths[pos] = iSpec;
				}
				break;
			}

Teleporters and Warps are the only points accepting an 150 × 150 creature but which is more smart - using R_SPECIAL Flag, otherwise you need to create a "home-made" reachSpec - UT cannot do this and for this is full goofing - why this data is not open for user/mapper for being properly set ? For messing up maps based on guessing, that's why. The fact is... such Enlarged Specs are placed between Teleporters and Warps and not really between a Teleporter and an AlarmPoint or a PatrolPoint. Limitation at common dimensions of 70 × 70 in a big space around, for me has ZERO logic as long as your biggest stock creature is 115 × 110. If this data it's a sort of byte, you still have options up to 255. It's not like we pay for numbers, why only 70 ? Engine recognizes all this data computing navigation as it should - But it won't create such data not even its own reachFlag 2 = R_FLY. Of course, small Pawn can have issues with "high nodes" and big collisions and here would be needed the min. limitation which they never bothered to do, and which is visible in ramps - exactly, ramps are having issues based on this size which should match pawn more closer to reachSpec dimensions even as minimal possible reachable size. But, when you do paths for Skaarj addressing a way smaller pawn - Bot, the issues caused by a lousy ideas and incomplete assets are very logic. And this is not a rant (as it used to be seen about my posting) is just the Reality from Unreal. To me, Dev should examine what Pawns has mapper in his Level. If a Pawn in Level has collision X Y, Dev should attempt to create paths for it especially if has orders/strings matching Navigation. But... did they care ? No ! It was all about rushing to release game for money not for a good quality. It has a bit of quality, but... it has a lot of bubbles as well and left there without solving them.

Code Biography: whatever UT v400 downloaded from a lousy link posted as a public post at ut99.org - you can imagine that I've saved these assets in multiple places... So anybody can figure what I'm talking about when it comes to DevPath. It's all based on a logic calculation.

Due to assets used which can be saved elsewhere these maps need some additional work if we want "enlarged Paths". The fact is Enlarged Paths are not helping if physical space is too small for monster. And now another brain exercise: when redeemer blows monster way locking it in whatever spot do you think that it will resume patrolling from a roof ? In Dreams... not in UT if it doesn't die killed by shock wave. This is noticeable even by my daughter.

In other hand this is some work around which might not be that good for testing everything, here testing second map was... annoying. Warlords were taking Flags during combat bringing them nowhere - they are not even in normal CTF teams and for a complete mess those cannons are just a nonsense in stage. Me one I don't see anything funny. This pawn soup heads nowhere, I don't see any CTF here.

The rest means... settings. This mapper is somehow "kinki" or such. You are taking damage if you want to go down with lift - lift is not moving called by player which is stupid. That is the mostly a button handy for Bots Only. There should be TRIGGEROPENTIMED mover and so a LIFT in ALL WAY. Thanks to the faith that CTF has Translocator which will prevent lousy things from happening - Telefraging cannons and monsters are not an exception in my packages.

[evilgrins]

...and as stated, I'm fine with the shrinkage, it just presents a problem in only 1 thing, and it's not even that big a thing.

Having access to the inside of the base means it will periodically get stuck on the ledge. Titans do not navigate ramps well (fine going up but not so much getting back down) and they're not great with ledges. When the Titan was in the base the flag was captured, and the Titan leaned over to throw rocks at the flag thief... and got stuck on the ledge for abut 3 minutes before it eventually got free.

What looks like an even flat ledge to you and I apparently has just enough of a distinction that the Titan can get hung up on it. Not long, not forever, but for a little bit.

It just kept walking forward without going anywhere, sliding a bit to the left and right.

[Nelsona]

What looks like an even flat ledge to you and I apparently has just enough of a distinction that the Titan can get hung up on it. Not long, not forever, but for a little bit.

Then check default properties of this Pawn - It doesn't look like is capable to Jump and then... won't get over a ledge by jumping as Bot does, simple as that.
Some of vars are changed/adjusted in Run-Time depending on pawn type and capabilities embedded, it's not like Titan turns itself into a jumper as long as no such function has been ever written in this pawn - like I said already, Titans are NOT ROAMING due to their size vs navigation data involved, as result logically are not supposed to move over holes or to climb on something and so neither having a deal with a ledge - forget them in maps with ledges if that causes a bad situation. Even Bot is having a problem in understanding a ledge in certain angle, Titan has BRAINS_Mammal, and changing this byte won't make it smarter, but is a byte more accepted for access toward navigation not for its own movement decisions which are the same as in original.
I played MH for years and I did not see any Titan moving over a ledge or jumping - but... of course he flew... blown by a Redeemer blast .

The changes done were for making possible a patrol task. If anything else blows it away in whatever game state screwing this task, that's not my problem. Redeemer is UT and Titan is Unreal and SinglePlayer stuff without Redeemers. By making a soup with these assets results are all accordingly. DispersionPistol won't Move a Titan and not even Eightball.

[Nelsona]

This is second map. Let me know if something else is missing. Epic's bugs are not mine.

CTF-UTDM-Cannons-TwinValley2_rS2258.7z

(730.56 KiB) Downloaded 93 times

If Berserkers are enough mad, combat based, they might even play a bit of CTF...

Note: Only Rewritten packages are respawning monsters with mapped health not with default class health and they do re-spawn sound as it was intended - "coders" didn't really know what to do and how are things working after all.

[evilgrins]

Like the enthusiasm, but no.

Don't want the UTDMS running to the other team's base to get the flag, for various reasons but 1 is certainly pathing like that makes it run around backwards and sideways which looks plain weird. I'd like pathing for it similar to what you did on the other map with the Titans, though maybe a bit broader so it can patrol within the base and that side bit before the caves; not into the caves.

Also, appears the Warlords picked up on the Skaarj pathing as they attacked the bases much faster than they ever did before. That's problematic.

[Nelsona]

At those dimensions Pawn is accepted - already explained. As we know as conclusion from posted tutorials, Pawn flying has a wider reachable range - more capable than a ground unit. Destroying paths is not an answer, Bot won't work. Paths in map are normal, my XC reporting tool shows mainly 70 × 70 - here I did not enlarged anything. If you don't want Skaarj to run around map you can remove their AlarmTag and they will be deactivated.

If you want them to patrol then let me setup patrolling routes, you can recommend me if you have whatever good idea here.

This is something simple:

CTF-UTDM-Cannons-TwinValley2_rS2189.7z

(730.47 KiB) Downloaded 107 times

[evilgrins]

Better, but...
· Did you change the Skaarj visual range again? That worked great with Falls Valley, but here not so much. As you can see in that shot down there the Skaarj is an underground tunnel, shooting at wall. Now above him and in that direction there was an enemy... but he obviously can't hit it from there.
· You increased Skaarj health to 600, which is a moot point. Soon as it dies and and respawns it returns to its default 320.

No other issues, though.

[Nelsona]

Nah... Enemy is enemy and Target is target, in Epic's codes they are not always matching, I could see this X times in MonsterHunt, too bad that you still did not figure these... this is one of reasons sitting behind my decision in making NsMonster - before "conforming" and "XC age", NsMonster was a replacement for all Epic's stock in my gaming server, It's why I could play relaxed without troubles, I really forgot some of these bubbles. In MH2 I added something in a timer guarding this "fire-at-walls" which I could see very often in MH games... Original CTF has ZERO monster support and so ZERO fixes.

This map it's just map - it doesn't have any embedded aggressor or anything else for pawn control. Previous map has indeed a controller but... that is not so helpful. It accelerates Pawn at a possible enemy but... still can be issues when Pawn is busy with firing and not always checking for a direct fire-line. Map is not supposed to fix monsters. It's up on you what "Pawns" are you using in game-play.

Soon as it dies and and respawns it returns to its default 320.

Happens in "packages" coming with map, not in my packages in which they stay with "Mapped Health" like I said before. Probably some day you'll see that I'm right when I say that those Player-Monster pawns are trashes in all the way - they don't include too much adapted code to team-work and neither simple fixes for their poorly coded combat functions/states.
This version, without "teams-soup" using those Warlords, to me looks very suitable for On-Line. I'm thinking to add it in public M.G.S. server after flushing "extra-teams".

[evilgrins]

You will probably love this (it's HUGE) and hate this (it has warp zones).

I'm not planning to add monsters but definitely adding at least 1 ut2k4 cannon to each side.

Ideally want bot pathing, not necessarily slv/rx pathing; maybe but mostly just the bot pathing.

I've swapped out some nukes for standard weapons/health/shield in the main flag area already, holding off on doing anything else until your assessment.