Map assessment and pathing enhancements

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Nelsona
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona »

Monsters are not available in non-monster games, neither in those accepting specific monsters. As result they will get turned into fake monsters permanently embedded.
Next: In room there is a Trigger for players, I did not see yet how player is supposed to get there... :?: or I have to look well at walls how are defined....
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evilgrins
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by evilgrins »

Nelsona wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:03 pm Monsters are not available in non-monster games
Monsters were always available, lots of early mappers did that all the time.

Best case ever was the original CTF-ProjectX.
Nelsona wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:03 pmIn room there is a Trigger for players, I did not see yet how player is supposed to get there
If you're talking about what I think, there 2 of those. 1 on each side. It triggers a bombing run of redeemers.

I'd like that to be left alone so it still works.
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Nelsona
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona »

evilgrins wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 12:38 am Monsters were always available, lots of early mappers did that all the time.
Did you play with default setup bNoMonsters = True ? Only maps with screwed setting will come with monsters, BotPack was not planed for this way.

#2 Trigger inside room with mercs has 40 × 40 collision - how can you touch it without to be inside ? - Whatta f...k ?
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Can you figure settings from maps generally ? Here I see a free spot for Translocator where probably you can get inside:
a) if Monsters won't kill you something will happen;
b) in "bNoMonsters = True" games - there is nobody there.

Evidence for point b). There is nothing in the "cage".
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Do Player has any reason in CTFGame to crawl map instead of taking enemy in account and Flag ? I don't see why would kiss walls and all sort of things instead of capturing enemy Flag.
Next stage...
For keeping a bit of originality there can be some "Monsters" available IN ALL settings.
More to come... Servers still allowing Monsters. Do they animate normally over network ? Monster uses "bStasis" and such actors are not truly animating where are not rendered directly... Believe me or not, this it turns out in a net misery if certain elements are not adjusted - and once again CTF is not SP...

Next... Current map using any setup - Monsters and Non-Monsters... Yeah, cough... and no extra Accessed Nones concerning Monsters - because there is no Monster in any format...
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And... they are dancing...
This is my view with regard to a bit of quality for a product instead of something "cool" and filling errors in logs.

To the other chapter... Pathing...
It's not like lifts are set correctly, there are missing points fracturing network. There are needed more nodes for covering the whole area...
First time I thought that will be a bit more easy but... I really need to look everywhere because certain places weren't covered. It's not only about routing to flags, it's also about not being lost in the wild zones thrown by a blast and sitting there all day long. I have my experiences from the past here happening in two maps not more because I refused to play similar scenarios.
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Nelsona
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona »

Back in stage... Here is something, perhaps it needs some adds - or NOT.
CTF-TimeRip_rS2941.7z
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Question in cause is if are really needed AlternatePaths. Bot going to "left" will chase harder carrier on "right" due to large space. But maybe... Idk - your decision.
Quoting several edit moves:
- replaced Monsters with Animated Non Monster Actor;
- removed access at useless areas;
- added a plenty of PathNodes (top of ramps, places with missing coverage);
- moved some Teleporters - Why Spawn Killing ????
- completed Lift Combos - some TRASH was here anyway;
- completed towers for accessing all assets;
- deleted some Nodes close each-other - doesn't make any sense that dumb mystical story with ramps and stairs;
- builded Paths using XC assets but cleaned up based on Stock Logic and not other sudden new "rules";
- executed a correction at Lift Offsets from keyframe1 - too high for Zero purposes;
- Turning them in generic Pawn activity not only Players - it surprises me original setup, taking in account initial purpose of map;
- SpawnPoints are not subject for Paths "falling" from sky - Projectiles don't use Pathing...

Known Problems: Stock BOT in water during whatever combat situation.
Hit me if something ugly is missing... To me this is a WIP until it will pass more other tests.
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evilgrins
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by evilgrins »

I'll take a look and get back to you.

The monsters are only for the dancing, Mercs on 1 side, Titan on the other. They're not supposed to interact with players are all, basically they're go-go dancers.

Uodate: Reviews are starting, hopefully more in time - https://ut99.org/viewtopic.php?p=142114#p142114
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Nelsona
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona »

evilgrins wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:40 pm They're not supposed to interact with players are all,...
Guaranteed they won't interact in any way - except when you want to telefrag them... :lol: , where this move will fail...
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evilgrins
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by evilgrins »

Haven't got a lot of input from players yet, only OjitroC:
OjitroC wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 11:25 pm The flag locations are fine - the rather circuitous, elevated route to the flags makes it challenging and interesting.

Overall it is certainly a map that lends itself to conversion to CTF. I like the subtle differences in the colouring on both sides that makes it clear which is the Red and which is the Blue 'side'. I think one can become familiar with the layout and routes fairly quickly - some of the steps in the corners just go down to the dancers and come back up on the same side but one soon gets the hang of that.

A few detailed comments
1) No DefencePoints near or on the route to the flags?
2) Sniper rifles only in the towers - why not put one on the pillars near the flag?
3) Check LiftCentre5 - it has no tag though it is on Mover8 so presumably should have the tag of that lift?
4) PlayerStarts10 and 12 are more or less over the teleporters from the towers thus possibly giving rise to telefragging on spawning - unlikely but possible - that possibility can be avoided by the moving those Starts somewhat.

Sektor's MapGarbage reports

Code: Select all

WallHitting: PlayerStart19 is facing a closer wall, a rocket fired too quickly might be damaging.
WallHitting: PlayerStart32 is facing a closer wall, a rocket fired too quickly might be damaging.
For myself, only issue I've seen is on the blue side. A bot got caught up on the ammo for the pulse rifle, kept running back & forth until someone shot him and then he was freed.
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Nelsona
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona »

Good, let me look what's up there.

Edit:
Whoa, I still failed to fix a combo (they were more), yes, I forgot about those PlayerStarts from "basements", not a lot of damage there - Spawning with face at "Monsters" but... on the "Bot caught" issue there I don't see problems with paths, there would be needed "verbose" report from Bot itself, if something doesn't alter properties for actors from there or another external cause - I'm really curious what was all about.

2ndEdit:
I would like to find out where defenses must be set without options to be eliminated in this open area, these will need to be placed with less prediction, my opinion...
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evilgrins
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by evilgrins »

Nelsona wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:06 pmI would like to find out where defenses must be set without options to be eliminated in this open area, these will need to be placed with less prediction, my opinion...
As you know, bots in a standard 4 players to a team setup typically has the 2nd bot on the team in the defense position...
Image
...and even without a specific DefensePoint setup, the 2nd bot of both teams most often defends from where that 1 in the pic is.

Now, certainly other DefensePoints would be ideal, as the map is big enough for 8 or more players per team, but that specific spot is the most ideal by far.
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Nelsona
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona »

First move which I do after figuring how map works would be to shoot defender as priority instead of running at Flag and being killed by high skilled snipers - this is what I'm trying to say - in a different formula is a basic logic element: Defender can see a lot resulting that he can be seen from a lot of spots. Visibility is reversal in my logic. If you look at me I can look at you as well. But... let it be then out of logic.

Pathing
That bugged spot - investigation result without Bot's help.
From behind PulseAmmo aka PAmmo, Pawn (any compatible Pawn) can see the start of the route to the Enemy Flag. By stepping at this entry into route, next Node suddenly doesn't exists - perhaps some calculations are failing in certain places because I could see such things somewhere in another MH map. Clearly something is not okay in DevPath for routing process.
The other tool used was pointing me points to follow but... in said spot is skating somehow.
Clearly paths are logically connected but certain run-time factor does a sudden routing drop from said AMMO spot - at this time I don't get exactly the reason but it looks like it happens - depending on geometry. I wrapped navigation chain different, reconnected chain - the same result.
But I solved issue another way, I build a path from nearby Ammo straight at Node nearby stairs to the underground warp, path resulted 1100 UU but... it suddenly worked.
I will try to reconfigure paths using Editor (cleaning debris) and probing the same spot again. If it happens again, clearly engine has some flaws here. If it doesn't happen, then XC building stuff has other goofing and perhaps I'll decrease it's usage. Then 3rd thing: Using my paths builder - there I'm curious...

Let me try to figure good locations for defenders - if possible.
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