Map assessment and pathing enhancements

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evilgrins
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Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by evilgrins » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:08 am

I get the impression this guy from RoseBum made a lot of edits of existing maps, possibly without permission, and the key element that can show this is the pathing of those maps. Most of them have some pathing, and I've identified the originators of those maps which have the same or better pathing.

That said, I think he made this map all on his own... as it seems to have no pathing at all:
https://unrealarchive.org/maps/unreal-t ... 4badc.html

I judge this by bots, not actually opening it up in the editor.

He made 2 versions, that above and this with WAY TOO MANY monsters on it:
https://unrealarchive.org/maps/unreal-t ... 88326.html

Ideally i'm interested in a fix for that first link, but thought I'd send both regardless.
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Nelsona
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:20 am

Well, thanks for recommendations and supporting Bot play in these UNR files (friends are calling them UT maps).
I think we need to open some topic in mapping section where we can drop some of these things - improved of course - making a new comer admin to be satisfied at a minimum level about these. Definitely leaving them borked or incomplete for 30 years it's a way no go. We have tools (perhaps we might have new future tools) which can be helpful for doing a better job. To be honest I'm not that happy about these "Rosebum" works, they are NOT READY disregarding what his fans might say. If I'm looking around them I see that map's pathing which is the simplest thing to do was not his strong point which for me is confusing. Making only some texture adjusting and/or another room for some reason it's not mapping but we can do a bit of polishing at these claimed mapping works.

I'll look at this one - first link in stage.
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evilgrins
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by evilgrins » Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:36 pm

Nelsona wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:20 am
I see that map's pathing which is the simplest thing to do was not his strong point which for me is confusing.
So far as the RoseBum maps go, they're mostly from back in 2000 so they may be forgiven for not having great pathing... but, then again, there are to this day those that don't bother to put pathing of any real degree on maps because they're not about bots. They want maps to play against other humans online.

The forum that Unreal-Killers use is filled with maps, some that are amazing looking, for their RX games... that have no pathing at all.

This for example?
https://unrealarchive.org/maps/unreal-t ... fc2b5.html
Designed for RX or SLV or any such mutator, is beautiful... but was not at all designed with bots in mind.

Not surprising, never seen a bot fly an RX.
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:41 pm

evilgrins wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:36 pm
Not surprising, never seen a bot fly an RX.
What If I say that HOF has around 3 maps with Flying Bots and newer RX mod has Bot Support where map has air paths ? Yeah, it's a recent addition, not very bright but they can operate captures while flying... That's off topic a bit here...

Back to map.
Then... with regard to this Level and ground hunting/capturing. There are some "fox-holes" having SniperRifle on those two hills. Even if spots don't have BSP issues, something is badly bugging Editor and paths are mainly One-Way. At this moment this is not a big problem, I'm switching to "manual driving", so far everything works as planed... I'm thinking if I need to setup a few routes through bases with escalating translocations but I think it might be... not that funny. Else jumping around won't have major effects at falling with damage, only if occurs from a really higher location a small damage might be taken. I think this will eliminate a bit of frustration because dying during fall with Flag it's not so nice... I need to look at a few matches and then it can come out.

To not forget.
I intend to keep compatibility with UT and CTFGame assets, gasbags are saved separate for other editing. Monsters in CTF are doing only errors and not all admins are happy, a clean map as a base for editing I think it's more suitable than filled with junks. They can be copy-pasted back into whatever Monster-Edit version for whoever want such things.
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by evilgrins » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:55 am

Nelsona wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:41 pm
What If I say that HOF has around 3 maps with Flying Bots and newer RX mod has Bot Support where map has air paths?
*faints*
Nelsona wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:41 pm
Monsters in CTF are doing only errors and not all admins are happy, a clean map as a base for editing I think it's more suitable than filled with junks.
I was going to replace them with non-attacking creatures. Seagoats and cats, mainly.
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:52 pm

Done !
Map is archived and there are two additional txt files: one with a few words and other has monsters saved for any future editing...
CTF-CivilWarIII_rS847.7z
(209.97 KiB) Downloaded 36 times
Good luck with further editing !

Next, please !
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by evilgrins » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:40 am

Well...
Nelsona wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:52 pm
Next, please !
...some edits I've just been posting to my LJ community, and I know this one has crappy pathing, but it's basic enough that it's mainly for online play.

This · https://unreal-games.livejournal.com/133986.html

The original was bland as all get out, and i mostly changed it up just for fun.

You don't need to fix this one, it's already out and some folks have been enjoying it, but I am curious what you think of it.

I'll setup Vulcans-Anvil for download, that one I'll want you to fix before I fully release it.
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:04 am

CTF-Alien has the same eternal stupid insanity of pushing FlagBases higher BEFORE pathing instead of AFTER pathing. As direct result, FlagBase-s are not connected with an incoming connection. Bot/AI_Pawn can get flag by chance if it roams around and also by chance bringing it at home when retreat or it's crawling for some reason - kidnapping so to speak. It's NOT a CTF map for A.I., it's a TeamDeathMatch map in true terms. Also this map has isolated spots so to speak multiple Paths Networks instead of an unique and linked Paths Network. I understand years 2000 and not understand in the same time. Some people were doing good maps in that time working perfectly...
This is a TEXT confirmation from my Trash Lord known by friends as MapGarbage:
MapGabage wrote: Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase0 - Paths[0]=8 ->FlagBase0 --->PathNode66 RFlags=Walk =1 Dist=224
Connected: FlagBase0 to PathNode66.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase0 - PrunedPaths[0]=10 ->FlagBase0 --->PathNode208 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=891
ShortcutConnected: FlagBase0 to PathNode208.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase0 - Paths[1]=5 ->FlagBase0 --->PlayerStart1 RFlags=Walk =1 Dist=65
Connected: FlagBase0 to PlayerStart1.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase0 - PrunedPaths[1]=9 ->FlagBase0 --->PathNode67 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=558
ShortcutConnected: FlagBase0 to PathNode67.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase0 - PrunedPaths[2]=7 ->FlagBase0 --->PlayerStart4 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=906
ShortcutConnected: FlagBase0 to PlayerStart4.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase0 - PrunedPaths[3]=6 ->FlagBase0 --->PlayerStart2 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=887
ShortcutConnected: FlagBase0 to PlayerStart2.

:
Specs: No NavigationPoint heads to FlagBase0 as shown in list. If a route passes through, it won't be usable.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase1 - Paths[0]=15 ->FlagBase1 --->PathNode175 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=260
Connected: FlagBase1 to PathNode175.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase1 - PrunedPaths[0]=12 ->FlagBase1 --->PlayerStart0 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=869
ShortcutConnected: FlagBase1 to PlayerStart0.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase1 - Paths[1]=11 ->FlagBase1 --->PlayerStart9 RFlags=Walk =1 Dist=96
Connected: FlagBase1 to PlayerStart9.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase1 - PrunedPaths[1]=16 ->FlagBase1 --->PathNode176 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=656
ShortcutConnected: FlagBase1 to PathNode176.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase1 - PrunedPaths[2]=13 ->FlagBase1 --->PathNode173 RFlags=Jump Walk =9 Dist=623
ShortcutConnected: FlagBase1 to PathNode173.
Specs: ___________________________________________
Specs: FlagBase1 - PrunedPaths[3]=14 ->FlagBase1 --->PathNode174 RFlags=Walk =1 Dist=352
ShortcutConnected: FlagBase1 to PathNode174.

:
Specs: No NavigationPoint heads to FlagBase1 as shown in list. If a route passes through, it won't be usable.
Specs: ReachSpecs Flags summary:
Flg: R_WALK = 1
Flg: R_FLY = 2
Flg: R_SWIM = 4
Flg: R_JUMP = 8
Flg: R_DOOR = 16
Flg: R_SPECIAL = 32
Flg: R_PLAYERONLY = 64
The rest is not unknown to me:

Code: Select all

CTFReport: --- Reporting AlternatePaths setup: ---
CTFReport: For Team 0 = 0 pieces.
CTFReport: For Team 1 = 0 pieces.
...
StartingChecks: Map has 7 PlayerStart Actors for team 0.
StartingChecks: Map has 8 PlayerStart Actors for team 1.
...
DefenseChecks: Map has 0 DefensePoint Actors for team 0. Check if this is wrong.
DefenseChecks: Map has 0 DefensePoint Actors for team 1. Check if this is wrong.
...
VoidCheck: --- Void placement report ---
VoidCheck: Light26 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: Light46 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: Light70 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: InventorySpot961 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: InventorySpot966 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: InventorySpot967 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: InventorySpot1073 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: InventorySpot1078 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: InventorySpot1079 looks placed into void.
VoidCheck: 9 actors look placed into void, check those.
...
Specs: No NavigationPoint heads to InventorySpot961 as shown in list. If a route passes through, it won't be usable.
Specs: There isn't any connection starting from InventorySpot961.
Specs: InventorySpot961 do looks isolated from Navigation Network without connections. Check paths ! //OLOOLOOL - and all those from void
...
UnReachableNodes: FlagBase0 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it
UnReachableNodes: FlagBase1 looks much over ground for normal Human Size, check it
Nothing new...
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evilgrins
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by evilgrins » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:19 am

Nelsona wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:04 am
I understand years 2000 and not understand in the same time
Kinda figured. Near as I know that guy did only 2 other maps, and this one with the horrible pathing was his "best" work.

Moving right along...

This is Clarion:
https://unrealarchive.org/maps/unreal-t ... ef3dd.html

You can check it out, but it seems well pathed enough. I only show it to you to prepare you for the one I'd like you to try and fix/path. Clarion is an ideal map for Titans, possibly 2 to a team. Set on top of a mountain with a bridged chasm in-between. It's a good looking map.

Like myself and you, there are others that take existing maps and reboot/remake them. That is true of this too!

I give you... the remake:
https://unrealarchive.org/maps/unreal-t ... 32fe7.html

This one is ideal for Warlords. Same basic setup of structures, but it's no longer on a mountain with a chasm. Now it's 2 levitating landmasses with bridges in-between. This map is arguably beautiful... except for some reason the guy who enhanced it removed the pathing the original had.

Now, I'd like you to TRY and path this... but I'll understand if you can't. That bit on the end of the title that reads "unlocked" is incorrect. This map is very much locked, doesn't show up inside of UnrealEd. There's nothing there.

You said you wanted a challenge...
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Re: Map assessment and pathing enhancements

Post by Nelsona » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:07 am

I do not intend to comment before to see what is about... but you need to keep in mind that I can create paths using a manual work when it comes to a reachSpec structure, the rest it's only a call to a single function which UGold has. The only problem that can stops me might be when map uses textures/assets specific to UT which has another structure than UGold and then it has to be temporary changed.
Let me look how it goes and I won't recover Paths-Net but I might be capable to do a more optimized and simple one - if DevPath supports map's size else no any voodoo magic would help...

Okay, working stage - it doesn't look very challenging, in fact by using newer assets from Editor it's not such a big deal... Take a look at Paths here, lol.
ReallyUnlocked.png
ReallyUnlocked.png (1.16 MiB) Viewed 1298 times
What was the title saying ? Unlocked !?
I think THIS is more than unlocked - here I have to delete red buggers nearby bridges... Those are... XC myths.
Let's look closer using new toys:
Details_0.png
Details_0.png (711.86 KiB) Viewed 1297 times
Me one I think A.I. will fail to follow this way... it's a deja-vu (aka already seen this such failures) for me... and here will come a manual cleaning/adjusting...
Now maybe some people will understand why do we need a possibility or more possibilities to work at reachSpecs MANUALLY and not using Scripted pathing robots and splitting hair to mitigate their way of doing voodoo paths.
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